Senator Hagel, earlier this year you called on Congress to debate the idea of reinstating the draft. Now that the U.S. has handed over sovereignty to Iraq, are more troops needed? We‘re talking today—we‘re hearing today that there‘s going to be a call-up, an involuntary call-up of 5,600 retired and—retired reservists.

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R-NE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, Andrea, what I said was that we need to stay focused on matching the mission with the resources. And what that means is very simply, as we continue to make more commitments around the world with American troops, with the smallest army we‘ve had in modern history, we are stretching our armed force structure to the point of breaking it. We are digging deep into our National Guard and reserves. We are seeing the consequences of that. We are seeing that we are putting stop-gap measures on people rotating out and seeing second and third terms going back into Afghanistan and Iraq.

So yes, we do need to take a look at where this resource—this manpower resource is going to come from for the future. And—I‘m not calling for a draft, but I think we need to look at all the possibilities and have a legitimate debate about it.

MITCHELL: Do you think—excuse me. Do you think that this involuntary call-up that we‘re hearing about is unfair? I mean, these people have served their time. They‘ve been discharged or they‘ve retired. And now they‘re being called back.

HAGEL: Well, Andrea, my understanding of what the situation is in the call-up of 5,100 involuntary reserves—their status still is that they are obligated to a certain number of years yet in service to the United States. And it‘s within the context of that service that they are being asked, or I understand will be asked, to come back into active duty for a remainder or a good part of the remainder yet in their obligation to this country.

MITCHELL: Senator, the latest “New York Times”/CBS poll shows that the president‘s approval rating is down to 42 percent. That is a record low. Do you think that is reflecting dissatisfaction with the Iraq policy?

HAGEL: Oh, I‘m sure that issue is part of the dissatisfaction. It can‘t help but be. It is the main issue that is confronting this country today. And certainly, it will continue to be, I suspect, the main issue as we go into the November elections.

MITCHELL: Well, you just wrote in a piece in “Foreign Affairs” magazine that to have a successful Republican foreign policy, it has to be sustainable and it has to be built on consensus. Where is the consensus in America for this Iraq policy?

HAGEL: Well, we are developing that. At least, the president is hoping it will develop. This is a difficult time. And as you know, I‘ve had differences with this administration as to how we went into Iraq. And I think and thought at the time it was far too unilateral, that we didn‘t think through all the dynamics.

Now we—like always in any policy, we‘re confronted with the sustainability of that policy, the American people staying with that policy, because when you‘re losing men and women daily—we‘ve now lost over 850 men and women dead in that conflict and over 4,000 wounded—the American people are going to question the policy. And they should, in the sense that it‘s their men and women being killed, their sons and daughters, their money. But is it worth it? Is this policy worth it? Is there a dynamic to it that, in fact, connects America‘s security and stability in the world to the sacrifices we‘re making? A president must lead on that policy, and only a president is going to be able to help sustain it. So yes, it‘s a big issue. It will continue to be a big issue.

MITCHELL: The Supreme Court, 8-1 in one instance, voted against the president‘s policy on the detainees. Was the administration wrong to assert that foreign and other detainees did not have the right to challenge their detention?

HAGEL: Well, I think the Supreme Court‘s decision was a correct decision. Yes, this country, the United States of America, was under attack. It was unprecedented what happened to us September 11, 2001. But at the same time, we are a nation of laws, and no president, no matter what the challenge is, is above those laws. We have rights, and those rights must be maintained and sustained. So I think the Supreme Court was correct in its decision.

MITCHELL: Well, there are a couple of other issues coming up that are going to contentious in this campaign. One of them is the constitutional ban on gay marriage. There are conservative groups calling on you to support them on getting this ban through the Senate. Will you?

HAGEL: Well, first of all, I, like I suspect, most Americans, believe that marriage should be a contract. It‘s a sacrament between a man and a woman. That‘s not the issue. The real issue is how do you assure that or protect that? Historically, the United States has been about states having the authority to control and delegate authority over civil contracts. On one level, that‘s what a marriage is. On the second level, a marriage is a religious commitment. It‘s part of a religious institution. It‘s a sacrament. And I don‘t think that, based on the 38 states that now have laws on their books, including my state, Nebraska, which defines what marriage is, or at least the recognition by the state of a marriage between a man and a woman, you need a constitutional amendment to protect that. The fact is, we do have a federal law on the books right now which gives each state the power to make that decision for themselves. So I‘m an old-fashioned conservative, when it comes to the Constitution of the United States. I think we should be very careful...

MITCHELL: More of a Libertarian.

HAGEL: Well, maybe a Libertarian‘s a better word. But we should be very careful how we use the Constitution. And I do not see, at this point, a need to amend the Constitution in order to protect the sanctity of marriages.

MITCHELL: Senator Hagel, how do you feel about what happened on the Senate floor last week? What are you hearing from your constituents? What do people back home think about the so-called “F-bomb,” the dispute between your vice president, our vice president and your vice presidential nominee, and Senator Leahy?

HAGEL: Well, I don‘t think any American is shocked by the verbiage and some of the words that were used. But I think it‘s important that we all stand back for a moment and understand those of us who have the privilege of serving this country in high office, we have a responsibility to those we serve, especially young people. And that kind of discourse on the floor of the Senate, there‘s no way you can allow for that. It‘s inexcusable. And what that does, it further erodes the standards and expectations of our country and our people, our institutions at the very time we‘re trying to define up our standards and our expectations. And so I‘m sure the vice president was sorry he said it and he...

MITCHELL: He said he felt better for saying it, Senator. He said he felt better afterwards.

HAGEL: Well, I...

MITCHELL: He got it off his chest.

HAGEL: I can‘t speak for the vice president. But I can tell you that any time I use the word “damn” at any time, I will get letters from teachers in Nebraska saying, Senator, don‘t you realize that you are a role model for our young people? How can you defend that? And I made a mistake when I said that. I‘m imperfect, like all of us. But there‘s just no reason that we should be conducting ourselves and using that kind of discourse on the floor of the Senate between elected officials. We certainly debase the system...

MITCHELL: Should he apologize?

HAGEL: Well, he says he‘s not going to, I guess, but that‘s up to him. But I‘ve already told you what I think.

MITCHELL: OK. Thank you very much, Senator Chuck Hagel.

HAGEL: Thank you.

You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MITCHELL: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Senator John McCain, fresh off the campaign trail with President Bush last week, will have a prominent speaking role at the Republican national convention. Senator McCain, welcome.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Thank you, Andrea.

MITCHELL: NBC News has learned that the U.S. Army is planning an involuntary call-up of nearly 6,000 retired and discharged soldiers for combat support roles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Good idea? Bad idea?

MCCAIN: It‘s probably an idea that‘s driven by an emergency situation, where we simply don‘t have enough troops and boots on the ground in Iraq. It‘s very rare that this kind of involuntary call-up of people who have already gotten out of the military takes place. And some of this could have been prevented if Secretary Rumsfeld had recognized long ago what so many of us were saying urgently, that we needed more troops on the ground in Iraq, particularly of particular specifications, specialties that these people have that are being called up involuntarily.

MITCHELL: Well, we now have a situation where, according to the “New York Times”/CBS poll today, 60 percent of those polled disagree with the Iraq policy, the way the president is running Iraq policy. This is becoming a problem for reelection, is it not?

MCCAIN: I think it probably is. I think the—Iraq will—may have a very significant impact on the elections. But I believe that with this turnover of power to an Iraqi government that I am guardedly optimistic that we will, with the help and assistance of the Iraqis, but recognizing the United States is still going to have to be the significant military role here—that we can succeed.

Andrea, could I just mention real quickly...

MITCHELL: Please.

MCCAIN: When our Forefathers wrote, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men”—meaning men and women—“are created equal, they didn‘t say all American men. I believe that the Iraqi people have the same yearnings for democracy and freedom that everyone else in the world does. I believe they want their kids to have a choice. I don‘t think they want 8, 9-year-old kids in prison in Baghdad. And so I‘m guardedly optimistic that we will succeed.

MITCHELL: Do you think that this is real sovereignty, or have their hands been tied by all of the rules and letters and restrictions that Paul Bremer left behind before he got on that C-130 and got out of there?

MCCAIN: I think the public statements by Allawi and others of their appreciation and—for what we‘ve done and their reliance on us for security in the near future is—is fine. Obviously, there is—since these are young American men and women who are in harm‘s way, there‘s got to be some codification of their role. But I believe—and frankly, one of the reasons why I believe we‘re going to succeed is because I can‘t contemplate the consequences of failure.

MITCHELL: Right. More with Senator John McCain. And we‘ll be asking about his role at the Republican convention.

You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MITCHELL: This half-hour on HARDBALL, Senator John McCain on how to keep Americans safe from terrorism in Iraq. Plus, former presidential candidate Howard Dean on President Bush‘s slipping poll numbers.

But, first, the latest headlines right now.

(NEWS BREAK)

MITCHELL: Welcome back to HARDBALL. I‘m back with Senator John McCain.

Senator, you suffered in Vietnam as a prisoner of war. Now we see these horrific pictures of Americans being held hostage in Iraq. What can we do about this?

MCCAIN: They‘re the symptom of the kind of people we‘re dealing with. And it reminds us very graphically how evil the adversary is and how implacable.

And I think that the American people, as tragic as this is, will even be more steadfast in our support of the war on terror.

MITCHELL: Well, certainly, all the bad news coming out of Iraq is having an effect on the president‘s approval ratings. In the latest “New York Times”/CBS poll, his approval is down to 42 percent.

If this continues to drop, can you see a situation where, in August, the party, the president, comes to you and says, we really have to do something, something dramatic? And they‘ll come up with some convenient excuse and ask the vice president to make his excuses and they‘ll come and ask you to serve and run on the ticket?

MCCAIN: Well, I would prefer emperor.

MITCHELL: Not a bad title.

(CROSSTALK)

MCCAIN: No, that‘s just not...

MITCHELL: No one has ever accused you of being a good No. 2, Senator McCain.

(LAUGHTER)

MCCAIN: Yes, that‘s true. And I don‘t envision that scenario.

I think that underestimates the very close working relationship that the president and the vice president have. I don‘t envision a scenario to that the president‘s approval will deteriorate further. I could argue that, with some success in Iraq and the Iraqi people being more involved in the democratic process, that you could see an improvement in the president‘s ratings.

But the president and Dick Cheney enjoy a very close working relationship and one almost unlike any other in history. And I don‘t think that is going to be severed for anybody.

MITCHELL: Well, clearly, that is the case. But even though the polls are all over the place, the polls consistently show that this has been a neck-and-neck race, up, down, but very, very closely fought, except when you are paired with George Bush. And then there is anywhere—double-digit leads for a Bush-McCain ticket.

MCCAIN: Yes, but, remember, about two weeks ago, Andrea, we were talking about the Kerry-McCain ticket, which also—which also won.

(LAUGHTER)

MITCHELL: Clearly, the answer is John McCain either way.

(LAUGHTER)

MCCAIN: I‘m very happy in the United States Senate. I would like to be reelected. I‘m supporting President Bush‘s reelection. And all this is very flattering, but I also know and you know from being around our nation‘s capital, all this is very transient.

MITCHELL: At this stage, what do you think about the partisan nature of this campaign, though? We see a Bush-Cheney Web site ad which uses the image of Adolf Hitler, comparing Hitler visually to Howard Dean and Al Gore and Dick Gephardt. Is that fair game in politics?

MCCAIN: I think everything is fair game in politics, or unfair game.

But this is the most partisan campaign that I have ever seen.

(CROSSTALK)

MITCHELL: Should they pull that down off their Bush-Cheney Web site?

MCCAIN: I haven‘t seen it to make a comment. But it is part of the larger problem. It is the partisan divide that exists between the two parties, exhibited on a daily basis in the Congress of the United States, which has led to very low approval ratings on the part of the American people of the way we do business in Washington.

And there‘s got to be some kind of comity. And this business of me running with the president or running with Kerry and how those numbers jump up, I would like to attribute it all to my winning personality, but I think it is because of a desire to see more bipartisanship and more courtesy and more respect for each other‘s views and less negativism in American politics. People are very, very not only turned off, but very dissatisfied with the situation as it exists in America today, reflected in the way we work in Washington.

MITCHELL: Does that include not using the F-word on the Senate floor?

Or has the media—have the media made too much of all that?

MCCAIN: Again, I think it is a symptom of the bitter partisanship that exists. We now vote on things, and both sides do it, promote votes on things which have no chance of passage, but only to try to gain some kind of political advantage.

That‘s not the way that we should work, and especially when we have compelling problems, Medicare, Social Security, the war in Iraq and so many others that we should be addressing in a much less partisan fashion.

MITCHELL: Now, you fought for nine years, I think, for campaign finance reform. McCain-Feingold finally got passed. And we‘re seeing some unintended results which, frankly, some people predicted, some of your critics predicted, which is record-shattering amounts of money by both parties.

And these 527 groups, you told me in an interview that you would go to court to challenge them if the Federal Elections Commission didn‘t. The FEC is asleep at the switch, if you will. What‘s going on here?

MCCAIN: Well, first of all, as far as the amount of money goes, that‘s good. The Internet is generating more and more people involved in the political process with relatively small campaign contributions, $50, $75. That‘s wonderful.

No longer can an office holder call up a CEO or a trial lawyer or a union leader and say, I need $1 million. And, by the way, your legislation is up before my committee again.

(CROSSTALK)

MITCHELL: But sneaking in through back door, the big money is getting in there.

(CROSSTALK)

MITCHELL: ... these 527s.

MCCAIN: Not to the degree, nearly to the degree that the soft money was coming in before.

But this is the Federal Election Commission. This is a corrupt organization. We will take them to court and we will win in court. And it is unbelievable when the chairman of the Federal Election Committee says, we can‘t act on 527s because we‘re in a campaign season. Since when does a regulatory body‘s actions dictated by whether a campaign is on or not?

And then you have got this other guy named Smith who, even after the United States Supreme Court declared BCRA, as it is called, constitutional, continues to trash it. These are bad people. The Federal Election Commission has to be reformed. And we‘ll take them to court. And I‘ll also take up this cause of getting them reformed, so they aren‘t driven by this partisanship. Their performance is a disgrace.

MITCHELL: And we‘re going to see you at the Republican Convention. Are you perfectly comfortable in that setting? You haven‘t exactly been a loyal soldier in the Republican Party throughout the Bush-Cheney ticket.

MCCAIN: Well, I‘m very flattered and honored to be asked to speak on Monday night. The president and I agree on more issues than we disagree on. We have been—I‘ve been solidly behind him on national security and foreign policy issues. And I‘m very flattered to be asked to speak. And it will be a lot of fun.

MITCHELL: It will be a lot of fun. Thank you very much, Senior John McCain.

Up next, former Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean on the battle for the White House.

You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

ANNOUNCER: Follow all the action in the battle for the White House. Sign up for our free daily e-mail. Just log on to our Web site, HARDBALL.MSNBC.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MITCHELL: Coming up, President Bush‘s job approval rating slips in a new poll. Former Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean will be here when HARDBALL returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean ran for the Democratic nomination for president, now heads DemocracyForAmerica.com.

Governor Dean, recent polls suggest that public opinion is turning against U.S. involvement in Iraq. Your candidacy was largely based on opposing the war. So, was John Kerry right to have voted to authorize the war?

HOWARD DEAN (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, my candidacy was not based on opposing the war. My candidacy was based on having a president that tells the truth. And I think John Kerry has done that.

I, along with the majority of Americans, now would prefer to trust John Kerry with administering Iraq than George Bush, because George Bush simply did not tell the truth about why we were going to Iraq. And it is not surprising that it is falling apart as a result.

So why isn't John Kerry benefiting from voter disapproval of the war and voter opposition to the American -- to the administration's policies?

DEAN: He actually -- he is benefiting enormously. That number has come down dramatically.

When I was running and I was in the lead, the president had a 40-point gap. John Kerry was nominated, I think, principally because people thought that his military background would make him -- give him the credibility to run the military in a situation where we were at war. And I think that's true. The gap is now down to nine points. We knew that, if we got that gap under 10, that we were going to beat George Bush. And I think John Kerry is going to beat George Bush as a result.

MITCHELL: Well, to take another look it, George Bush is now at the United Nations. He's gotten a resolution of authority. He went to NATO, asked for their help. He didn't get quite as much help as he would have wanted, but he is at least asking for their help.

He has turned over sovereignty to a new Iraqi government. Isn't he doing everything that John Kerry has demanded?

DEAN: Well, actually, he's done some of the things that John Kerry has demanded. And I think that's good. I think when the president starts following the Democratic lead, that's usually a good thing. It also shows that the president is in a lot of trouble.

I do think it's a good thing that sovereignty was turned over. I think that's a step in the right direction. However, the U.N. and the NATO agreements were essentially papered-over smiley photo-ops. The truth is that we continue to use -- lose brave American soldiers on a regular basis. The president has no plan for how to stop that. The president had no idea that we were going to have resistance.

Remember Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld telling everybody how the Iraqi people were going to welcome us with arms raised as the great liberators of Iraq? Eight hundred and fifty Americans have died because of what this president has done. And we are no safer than we were before we went into Iraq. The majority of people in America think that's also the case.

So I would prefer to have a decorated combat veteran, John Kerry, running this operation, rather than someone who served part time in the National Guard and never took a step abroad to defend the country in its time of need.

DEAN: First of all, Ralph Nader is not going to be the next president of the United States. The choice is between people like John Kerry and George Bush.

MITCHELL: Well, he might be if people like you supported him.

DEAN: Well, that's not true.

MITCHELL: He would have a better shot at it if he had support from more people within the Democratic Party.

DEAN: The truth is, as I said before, the choice is between John Kerry and George Bush.

John Kerry supported without a single Republican vote Bill Clinton's effort, successful effort, to balance the budget. George Bush has never balanced the budget in his life. Even as governor in Texas, the lieutenant governor runs the budget in Texas, not the governor. I prefer a balanced budget. I prefer strong environmental protection. I prefer jobs in this country again.

And we are not going to get that out of a Republican and this kind of right-wing Republican leadership. You're having two people I think on the show later on, two Republicans who are widely admired. They're widely admired because they speak the truth. The president has not shared the truth with us. I think it's time we had a president who did.

DEAN: I think nobody should ever be told to get out of a race. I think that's up to Ralph Nader to make that decision for himself. And I think in general third parties are helpful because they bring new ideas into the mainstream of American political thinking.

I don't think you can blame our military entirely for that. We need a president who knows how to lead. John Kerry knows how to lead. George Bush does not. I don't think Ralph Nader enters into this equation, except that he will take some small percentage of votes that otherwise would have gone to John Kerry. And he may have the effect again of reelecting George Bush. And I think that would be a tragedy for America.

MITCHELL: So, if he could have that impact, even drawing 2 or 3 percent of the vote in the key battleground states, does that mean that you would call on him or prefer that he get out of the race, so that there is that clear choice?

DEAN: I would prefer that, of course. But I don't believe that anybody should be in the business of telling other people they cannot run for president. This is a free, democratic government. And one of the great things about this country is that, if you want to run for higher office or for any office, you are free to do so.

I don't happen to think that Ralph Nader, who has served this country admirably over a 40-year career of consumerist and environmentalist leadership, I don't think that he's serving this country well by making this race. I have to say that.

MITCHELL: OK. Coming up, more with Howard Dean on the presidential race.

Governor Dean, I want to show you a Web ad which is appearing right now on the Bush-Cheney Web site and talk to you on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)

AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: How dare they drag the good name of the United States of America through the mud of Saddam Hussein‘s torture prison?

DEAN: I want my country back.

MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons.

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D), MISSOURI: This president is a miserable failure.

GORE: He betrayed this country!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MITCHELL: Now, you‘re in good Democratic liberal company, except for, of course, Adolf Hitler.

DEAN: Right.

MITCHELL: What is Adolf Hitler doing in there? The Republicans say that it all started with a MoveOn.org ad competition, so that once the Democrats started it, they‘re just retaliating. What do you think about this ad?

DEAN: I think it is pretty indicative of the moral bankruptcy of the Bush campaign, to be comparing his political opposition to Hitler.

I‘m sure if we compared George Bush to Hitler, which would be totally uncalled for, we would be roundly criticized and rightly so. And I think they should be as well. These people are not people who we want leading America. We want people leading America who will bring us together. And I don‘t think we want the Bush-Cheney campaign to run this country anymore.

MITCHELL: But didn‘t the Democrats actually start this with the MoveOn.org online ad competition? And isn‘t the heated nature of the campaign really coming as much from the liberal left as from the right? You‘ve got so much anger out there, with “Fahrenheit 9/11” and everything else. There is the most intense campaign in recent memory.

DEAN: I think, first of all, MoveOn.org is a private organization. I think, secondly, the president of the United States

(CROSSTALK)

MITCHELL: But it is highly associated with your campaign and with Democratic politics, liberal politics.

DEAN: I think for the Bush-Cheney campaign to put their opponents in the same breath with Adolf Hitler is pretty bad. And it is not very American. And it is one of the reasons I think George Bush is going back to Crawford, Texas, for a very lengthy vacation as of November 3.

DEAN: Well, I‘m in that position of actually being asked for some help with that, for some advice and so forth. And I generally take the position that, if I give advice privately, I don‘t give it publicly.

So I‘m not going to be able to say much about that and I don‘t plan to say much about that. I find that, if you give advice publicly, you‘re not likely to be able to give it privately much longer, as it should be.

MITCHELL: Well, just looking at the kinds of things that would help him determine it, should he choose someone with whose he‘s comfortable? Should he choose someone with who is obviously experienced and prepared to lead the country, should that become necessary?

(CROSSTALK)

MITCHELL: Or does he need more fire in his campaign? Does he need a John Edwards? Does he need someone who can turn on the voters and get out the base?

DEAN: Well, I think that one criteria that he has publicly talked about and I agree with him on totally is that you have got to pick somebody who could step in at a moment‘s notice and become president of the United States, if necessary. That‘s something everybody ought to agree to. And, certainly, that‘s his major criteria.

After that, he gets to choose. He is the nominee of the party. And he is going to make that decision. And the criteria that he uses are going to be his own and not mine or anybody else‘s.

MITCHELL: Well, since you‘re advising Kerry, does that mean that you think that clearly you‘re not going to be part of this competition? Can we pretty well assume that it is going to be someone like Gephardt, Edwards, Vilsack, somebody who has been named? Or do you think there is some sort of surprise afoot here?

DEAN: There‘s only one person who knows the answer to that. And I don‘t think he knows it yet. And that's John Kerry.

MITCHELL: And when will he announce it, do you think?

DEAN: That, I don‘t know.

DEAN: I think I need to make a point about that. I appreciate you brought it up. That‘s a national media perspective.

The truth is that I‘ve been on the road with John, and he‘s doing very well. He‘s turning out crowds. He‘s getting people really excited. He‘s getting extraordinary coverage in local press wherever he goes. The national press is not going to write the same jobs, education and health care story 30 days in a row. They can‘t.

But he‘s got to give that speech 30 days in a row because people who he‘s talking to haven‘t seen him before. So throughout Ohio and West Virginia and Oregon and Pennsylvania, he‘s getting good crowds, great press, and he‘s getting his message across. The national press is not going to cover that, of course, understandably so. But I don‘t think John Kerry has been eclipsed at all, not in the battleground states, where he needs to be and where this election is going to be won or lost.

MITCHELL: All right, thank you very much, Howard Dean. Good to see you again.

DEAN: Thanks, Andrea.