Howard & Judy Dean: The Diane Sawyer Interview

January 22, 2004

ABCNEWS' Diane Sawyer conducted an interview with Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean and his wife, Dr. Judith Steinberg Dean, this afternoon in Norwich, Vt. Following is a transcript of the interview.

Diane Sawyer: Until New Hampshire, what happened on the road to the primaries? Is there one word for it?

Howard Dean: Uh, there's not really one word for it, uh, except front-runner. Never good to be the front-runner early on.

Diane Sawyer: Let's take a look at what happened in the last, what 48 hours, quite a 48 hours. As we know, your speech has been … it is now the percussion I believe on Ozzy Osbourne's "Crazy Train," on the Internet. Letterman top 10. Jay Leno said that it's … he thinks it's a bad sign in politics when your speech ends with your aides shooting you with a tranquilizer gun.

Howard Dean: (Laughs)

Diane Sawyer: The tabloids are calling it the I Have a Scream Speech. Do you watch it? Do you read it?

Howard Dean: I've only seen it once. I've only seen it once.

Diane Sawyer: The speech?

Howard Dean: The problem is if you were there, I was you know, speaking to 3,500 kids that had worked for me for three weeks in Iowa, all waving American flags, all disappointed, and it was my job to make them go away from Iowa and feel like they'd done their work.

Diane Sawyer: All right, there's going to be a second time then.

Howard Dean: There's going to be the second time we see it.

Diane Sawyer: Gonna play it once and for all, what was happening here?

Howard Dean on Tape: (Inaudible) and Michigan. And, then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House. Eyyahh!

Diane Sawyer: What are you thinking when you look at this?

Howard Dean:I was having a great time, look at me. I was. I am not a perfect person, believe me, I have all kinds of warts. I wear jeep shoots … cheap suits sometimes, I say things that I probably ought not to say, but I lead with my heart, and that's what I was doing right there, leading with my heart.

Diane Sawyer: Mrs. Dean, Doctor Steinberg … what … how shall I call you?

Judy Dean: Mrs. Dean's good. Anything, I … I use Steinberg only in my office and the hospital. And, the schools and my home I use Dean.

Diane Sawyer: Dr. Dean. When was the first time you saw this?

Judy Dean: Uh, last night.

Diane Sawyer: Last night, not until then?

Judy Dean: Someone gave me a tape. I don't watch TV that much. (Inaudible)

Diane Sawyer: And, did you hear all the reaction to it?

Judy Dean: Not that much. I mean, you know I … I don't watch TV that much, and uh … I read the newspapers, but I guess it didn't look like much in the newspapers, it was different.

Diane Sawyer: And, when you saw it, what did you think?

Judy Dean: I thought it looked kind of silly.


Judy Dean: But uh … but I thought it looked OK.

Diane Sawyer: What did you say to your husband about that?

Judy Dean: Well, I think he had already told me where he was, and what he was doing, and uh … uh, I heard him say that … he had a lot of kids working for him, who had worked really, really hard for him, and uh, the outcome wasn't what they had hoped for, and he really, really wanted to pump them up. I mean, maybe he did a little too much, but that's what he wanted to do. He did it.

Diane Sawyer: How does it feel, to be the object of all these jokes?

Howard Dean: It's fine. It really is. Uh, you know, I … I … I'm the outside-the-Beltway candidate, and one thing that Bill Clinton told me, when I ran for president is never written … read anything that's written inside the Beltway, and never watch the … the cable television shows. So, I … you know, I'm having a fine time. I, you know …

Diane Sawyer: But it is the sort of thing that can hurt … really hurt you.

Howard Dean:You know what, Diane? It could. But there's nothing I can do about it. I did it. I own it. Uh, maybe it was over the top. I was trying to pump up 3,500 kids who gave me three weeks of their lives, and I'm not a perfect person. But, my attitude is, that's done. And, now we gotta get back to running for president.

Diane Sawyer: And, some of the political analysts have said that the real problem is that it tapped into another concern, it seemed to re-enforce the concern that had been brought up before about your pressure gauge. And, how you control it. And, specifically the whole issue of temper. So, can I ask you Mrs. Dean, does your husband have a temper?

Judy Dean: Not much. I mean, you know … we've been married for 23 years, and uh, he … he … he is very easy to get along with …

Diane Sawyer: Ever seen … temper, how often does he lose his temper around you?

Judy Dean: I can't remember the last time. He just doesn't get that angry. I mean, he doesn't. You know, he just … he's very kind, very considerate, and uh … it just doesn't happen.

Diane Sawyer: A couple of things on the campaign trail I want to let you address here. Uh, we saw the instance where a Republican, admittedly combative Republican, in one of the town halls asked you a question, and you had a splash (?) point, you reacted …

Howard Dean: You know, I'm not going to say what I, what the guy did, or what he didn't do, or anything like that. My attitude is this basically, uh, I believe people ought to respect each other. And, I want to hold everybody to those standards. I want to hold myself to those standards. And, I want to hold everybody else to those standards. People, you know, this anger stuff, which is, essentially (?) began last March when other campaigns started to spin it, because of the passion of the campaign, I don't really react to that, because I'm not particularly an angry person. And … but I do stand up for people's rights. There was … there was an incident where uh, I think it was an ABC camera person …

Diane Sawyer: Right.

Howard Dean: Uh, was interviewing me, and another cameraman from another station hit her on the head on purpose with his camera, because he wanted to get a better shot. I stopped the interview. I told him to behave himself, uh, and … and to knock it off, and that wasn't the way people treat each other.

Diane Sawyer: And, was there an event where you showed up and then walked out because …

Howard Dean: That's not true. Uh, what happened there, that was a Martin Luther King event. And, uh, one thing we find is that often events like this, including this tape, sort of has a life of its own, when they get in the … in the Beltway (Inaudible) What happened in that event was that 200 people, media people jumped after me. They knocked down one of the congressmen from Iowa, knocked down an aide. Uh, I was supposed to go to a Martin Luther King ceremony. When they got there, the press was so unruly, that I realized I was going to disrupt the ceremony, so we just left. Uh, you know, I do have standards for respect, and I think it's important for people to respect each other, regardless of whether they're media, or whether they're politicians, or whether they're ordinary people, and I do expect people to show respect for others.

Diane Sawyer: But it isn't the first incident in which temper has come into question, and recently a story has been circulating now about the mid-'90s, at a hockey game for your son, which ended in the police being called, and that you were one of the parents there, and then … then you apologized. You called and apologized.

Howard Dean: That (?) didn't (?) happen (?) either (?) A lot of this stuff is urban legend. Uh, there was a hockey game where there was an incident on the ice. Uh, the team was suspended because the coaches threw sticks out on the ice. Don't forget, wherever I traveled as governor, I had a police esc … a police escort. Uh, so I think that if there had been a problem, that I would have been taken out by my own police guys for my safety. A lot of this stuff is about urban legend. And, it happens because uh, other people have observed (?) uh, some of the things I do as anger. I will stand up for what I believe in, and I will stand up to protect weaker people, uh, but I don't often blow up. I think I did not yell at a staff member in 12 years when I was governor. That's just not what I do.

Diane Sawyer: So did you lose your temper at the hockey …

Howard Dean: I never, there certainly was no fighting, there was no … it was nothing of that sort. I don't … I don't remember exactly what this is talking about, but I've never … never been kicked out of a game, I never have uh, you know, been uh, escorted out by any police or anything like that. I had my own police to follow me around in case there were any problems with other people attacking me. There have never been any fights. So, I'm not sure exactly what the …

Diane Sawyer: You don't remember if you blew?

Howard Dean: I don't remember any, uh, blowing up, no.

Diane Sawyer: Because … I looked as far back as what (?), St. George boarding school …

Howard Dean:Uh-huh.

Diane Sawyer: And, I'm looking at something you wrote about yourself at St. George boarding school. And, you said, if you want to get to know me, you should be the curious type who can put up with a temper.

Howard Dean: I think if you have a temper when you're 16, that's not saying anything about (Inaudible) when you're 50.

Diane Sawyer: And, you wouldn't consider a person who then (?) has had a lifelong, uh, what expression of temper?

Howard Dean: Well, let's look at what you're saying. You're talking about a hockey game that may or may not have uh, happened. You're talking about a tape in which I was exuberant. And, what else are you talking about?

Diane Sawyer: (Sighs)

Howard Dean: I mean, you're making the case …

Diane Sawyer: Well, no let me ask you …

Howard Dean: And I'm saying, you know, have I ever blown up? Yes. Did I blow up once at a staff member in 12 years? Not ever. So, I mean, I understand your desire to make the case, as … as the all the other campaigns would like to, but the fact is, that it's what always happened. It's a small modicum of truth, and then it gets … grown (?)

Diane Sawyer: But I think and this is just to read what some supporters have said, watching the speech that night, and then also looking back at these things, and a couple of them said that they're just worried it's not presidential.

Howard Dean: Well, I certainly agree with that.

Diane Sawyer: You mean the speech?

Howard Dean: Yeah, I would not make the case for a moment that that was presidential. Not for a moment. Last time I went to a hockey game, my son got an assist on the first goal, I went "yahoo," and jumped up in the air. That's presidential? Probably not. So, I'm a dad, I'm a human being, I'm going to keep being a dad and a human being.

Diane Sawyer: But people do, I guess that people do want to know that you have a sense of how to control in public, when you're going to be president, how … what you do, and … as I say, your gauge, your pressure gauge.

Howard Dean: I was governor for 12 years. I was elected five times … re-elected five times. I think the people of Vermont have a pretty good idea.

Diane Sawyer: All right, I can hear some people out there, of course, sitting and looking up, looking at this, and saying, OK, this is the damage control interview. And, he's going to have a personality change now, in order to … to staunch the hemorrhage.

Howard Dean: One thing that's notorious about my campaign is handlers can't handle me. I mean, I am who I am. And, I am going to be who I am. I think one of the reasons that uh, all this stuff is, you know, I'm the … I'm the outside-the-Beltway guy. I don't play by the same rules the people inside the Beltway. I … I put my heart on my sleeve. I let people know who I am. I want this country changed. This country is owned and controlled now, by the government and corporations. That's not good for ordinary people, and I don't think it's good for ordinary people, and I've stood up and said so. So, the standards that uh, the inside the Beltway rules, people clucking about, yeah, am I going to violate some of those standards? Sure, I will. But, remember I was governor for 12 years, re-elected five times. Delivered balanced budgets, health insurance, education reform, none of which anybody in this race has delivered, including the president. I think I'd be a good president.

Diane Sawyer: Something else that everybody has noted, that you said at one time, that you are not going to … drag out your wife, and let her be used as a prop in your campaign. And, yet just before Iowa, we saw Mrs. Dean for the first time. And, she's sitting here for this interview.

Howard Dean: She wasn't a prop here (?)

Judy Dean: No, I'm (Inaudible)

Diane Sawyer: Did you want to do this interview?

Judy Dean: Howard asked me to do this interview, and I did. I … uh … I've been doing interviews from the beginning, mostly from Burlington, you know, uh …

Diane Sawyer: But not on television?

Judy Dean: Not on television, well not television until now, that's right. But, uh, I am kind of private, and uh, I have a … son in Burlington I like to stay with, and I have a medical practice which I love. And, uh, that's what I like to do, and I think it's really important for me, and Howard knows it's important to me. But, I also love Howard, and I think he would make a terrific president. You know, he's really an honest, straightforward, smart person. He's always cared about improving lives for people. I mean, that's why he's a doctor, and now that's why he's into politics. And, I think if I can help him, I will. And that doesn't mean he's going to disrupt my life, disrupt my patients, my son, but if he calls on a Saturday, and I'm not on call that weekend, I'll be out there Sunday.

Diane Sawyer: Well, let's see, here it's Thursday.

Judy Dean: Well, Thursday is my day where I don't schedule patients. I do house calls, paper work, phone calls. And, those can be (Inaudible)

Diane Sawyer: So you wouldn't have been doing this tomorrow on a Friday.

Judy Dean: That is … that would be much harder to do. That is much harder to …

Howard Dean: It's also something I … I think uh … it's true that I won't ever use my kids or Judy as a prop, but I think people, and I … we talked about this when we were deciding whether I should run or not, I think people are going to have to know Judy, because that … the kids are 100 percent off limits, as far as I'm concerned, I think the press has been pretty good about that, as they were with the Bush twins, and with Chelsea Clinton. But, I do think people do have to understand Judy, because understanding Judy has something to do with understanding me.

Diane Sawyer: One thing, and I just said … just … excuse me? Sorry. Sorry. The gremlin in the ear piece here. Sorry, I could hear it over here. One thing I actually heard somebody say is, this is like Bill and Hillary Clinton. This is the stand by your man interview. The public relations event. Does it feel like that?

Judy Dean: No, no. I think … you know, I think we are who we are, and I came out today, because Howard asked me to. I went to Iowa, and I enjoyed Iowa, and … I … I did want to come to New Hampshire, whether it was today, here with you, or whether it would be some other time, I think that was up to Howard.

Diane Sawyer: In fact you have … you have said, Governor Dean, that she's been a huge influence on me.

Howard Dean: She is a huge influence on me. Uh, principally because our marriage is based on respect, and friendship, uh, and those are … I mean, being in love with somebody is a terrific thing, but if you only marry somebody because they're in love … you're in love with them, that's why the divorce rate is 50 percent. And, she's a real life partner, not just a, you know, somebody I fell in love with. She is a friend and I respect her, and that is enormous for me. Plus, she's a lot smarter than I am. Diane Sawyer: Do you wish she'd been out on the trail with you more?

Howard Dean: No, I don't. And, the reason I … Do I think it would be easier for me politically? Yes, I do. But, in the context of my relationship, one of the things that Judy … Judy and I share a lot of values. And, one of the things we share is the family always comes first, and to have her out on the trail, and have our son at home by himself is just unthinkable. Never mind the issue of career. I think she has the right to have her own career. She didn't sign on to this. And, so you know, my … my attitude is look, this is the way it is. As it turns out, Judy's a doctor, and she's a good doctor, and she loves medicine, and I'm not going to try … try to convince her for a moment that she has to give that up.

Diane Sawyer: But I've heard people say … and it … they're just baffled, mainly, because they've said running for the President is a really important thing and people in this country consider the presidency enormously important thing. They would assume that however much you love your practice — and heaven knows, everybody wants their doctor to love their practice — that you would, for this time say, "Well, the most important thing is for me to be with him out there doing this which he believes in for the country."

Judy Dean: I think they're both important and I think they're all important. And I think um, I think I support Howard totally in what he's doing and I think he'd make a great president and I … often I would like to be there more when I talk to him every night. I would like to be there, just for myself. I'd like to share some of the ups and the downs and I certainly (Inaudible) them. But I … I just … you know, I have a primary first practice. It's … it's … it's my own private practice and my patients are my patients and they really depend on me and I really love it. It's not … it's not something I can say "Oh, you can take over for a month." It just doesn't work like that. And … and you know, (Inaudible) and I support him totally and I will do interviews so people can find out what I'm like. But I'd love to be closer to him and … and travel with him at times. But it's … it … but home and my practice is very, very important. Trying to balance and (Inaudible) and that's the way it is.

Diane Sawyer: So in the choice between his success and the campaign trail, is that's the … if you're the differential?

Howard Dean: That is (Inaudible) my choice. My values. My family's the most important thing to me. More important than being president. And if I had to (Inaudible) please come out, maybe she would. I would never ask. And the reason I would never ask is I know how important to her what she's doing is. And that's where it comes in, based on respect. I respect her too much.

Diane Sawyer: (Overlap) Do you think, for instance, the Clintons who had a young daughter at the time that they campaigned, do you think that they didn't respect family and …

Howard Dean: I think that's different. Every family has to work these things out for themselves. And this is the way we've looked at our marriage and it's been a great marriage. Best thing that's ever happened to me, plus having kids.

Diane Sawyer: A couple more questions about this because I think it's really important for people to understand it. So, forgive me if it seems like I'm coming back to the same thing again. But … I think … I mean, I have heard people say "Where has she been?" And the answer to that would be … ?

Judy Dean: Where has she been? You mean in Howard's campaign?

Diane Sawyer: Uh-huh.

Judy Dean: I've been home in my office, at home with (Inaudible). And I, you know, I've been honest (?) along (?) with Howard and (Inaudible/Low Voiced).

Howard Dean: There's really another side to this. I have women, my age, coming up to me in the campaign trail saying "Thank God your wife is like that." We just got a bunch of letters at home saying "Thank God. Hallelujah. A woman who has her own career and doesn't get dragged around." … some people would say "Where has seen been?" Other people would say "Thank heavens. A different kind of first lady." Diane Sawyer: And if you feel that way, why did you ask her to come out right now in this …

Howard Dean: (Overlap) Because I think it is important that people get to know who I am and if they're going to get to know who I am they're going to have to know who Judy is.

Diane Sawyer: Is it because it's a troubled time and … and the juggernaut has hit some pothole?

Howard Dean: Oh, yeah. There was no juggernaut. The juggernaut was the creation of … of the media and expectations and nobody was (Inaudible) the day.

Diane Sawyer: But … but I guess the question would be when people say that you overcame your reluctance to ask her.

Howard Dean: (Overlap) You know …

Diane Sawyer: That you were in trouble.

Howard Dean: … my reluctance to ask her when she came to Iowa and I actually noted that she enjoyed it quite a lot.

Judy Dean: (Laughs)

Howard Dean: So I was much less shy about asking again.

Diane Sawyer: She enjoyed it, huh?

Judy Dean: I did, a lot about it. I mean, I … it's pretty easy to speak in a room of Howard Dean supporters. I mean, everybody is yelling "Howard! Howard!" and "Judy! Judy!" and it is nice. I mean, people were great.

Howard Dean: (Overlap/Inaudible/Laughter)

Judy Dean: Yeah, right.

Diane Sawyer: So are we going to see you a lot more, then?

Judy Dean: No. I mean, I think … you know, we try to balance it. I mean, I think we're trying to balance it like a lot of families balance it. I realize a lot of (Inaudible) we think it's an important thing that you know, one of the most important things. But you know, people everyday try to balance their lives and we're going along and trying to balance it the best we can so I can do the best that … like patients and myself and my son and Howard and (Inaudible). And you know, you can't be everywhere at once.

Diane Sawyer: And to people out there who say "I'd be out there with my husband, I would just be out there." You say … ?

Howard Dean: (Overlap) But you know what? Think about that for a minute. How many people, women, were meant (Inaudible)? How many people have, with their job they love, with their son being in high school, are going to relish (Inaudible) being in your job and going out and running around a campaign trail and be poked at by everybody? You know? I mean, this is a no-brainer for me, Diane. It really is a no-brainer for me. I learned a long time ago that all you have in your life is your family. To give that up and make a (Inaudible).

Diane Sawyer: I'm trying to think, Senator Edwards' family has been out there. Mrs. Edwards has been out there. They have young children.

Howard Dean: (Overlap) But don't you think they worked that out themselves? Every family … no marriage and family … every family has to live (?) with (?) it (?).

Diane Sawyer: That is fair enough. I just want to make sure that I come back on a couple of things. Because you said you've learned something from this season of being … like being in the … well, this season. Uh, one thing, you said that … that you decided that you've got to be yourself. That you've got to return to being what you really are.

Howard Dean: Uh-huh.

Diane Sawyer: What … what were you that was not who you really were?

Howard Dean: Well, what I'm not is a rock star and uh, you know, some people I am. I mean, I … I told one of my campaign guys "You know, that's not what I wanted to be." I know other politicians love that stuff. I like it for the time because I think the energy between me and the audience is extraordinary. But I'd really like to do is manage. And I'm very good at it. I'd be out balancing the budget and that's (Inaudible) but the more important thing is, when the second recession hits — and I was (Inaudible) not just one — we've had to cut education. We've had to cut health care for kids. And we've had to cut higher education, college students. Why? Because they managed really well during the good times. And that's what this country needs right now. This country's in deep, deep trouble. If you can only fix one thing, it would be the budget. Because from that one product (?) (Overlap) comes all the other problems, or many of the other problems, that we have, including joblessness, inability to deliver health care, inability to take care of college kids and … and K through 12.

Diane Sawyer: A little bit of the rock star … what? intoxication there?

Howard Dean: Well, I didn't say I wasn't good at it. I just … it's not who I am.

Diane Sawyer: You know, but do you think it was a little bit of the rock star disorientation that …

Howard Dean: (Overlap) … disorientation that … (Laughs).

Diane Sawyer: (Overlap) Well … I don't know.

Howard Dean: (Overlap) Sure. What … you know, what happens when I speak? And this is what's right (?) in the campaign. What happens when I speak is that I get the energy of the crowd. The young people in this country are desperate for change. They know people don't care about them. The country (?) doesn't care about them. They see a president of 84,000 paragraphs (?) away in order to give tax cuts to people like Ken Lay and Enron. The young people are incredibly disillusioned. They see … the things that people care about the most who are under 30 are the deficit, the environment, and how to get through college. This president's wrecked the environment. We have the biggest deficit in the history of the country. What do they have to look forward to? They desperately want change and they're enormously energetic. That video shows it. Now look, I … I mean, was it over the top? Sure it was over the top. Do I do things that are a little nutty? Sure I do things that are a little nutty. But the truth is, I was having a great time. They were having a great time. It was really tough for those kids who worked their hearts out and come in third when they thought I was going to come in first. You know? I'm a little sheepish, Diane, but I'm not apologetic because I was giving everything to people who gave everything to me.

Diane Sawyer: I want to go back to just a couple of things on Iowa, though. It … it … it did startle, certainly, the pollsters that John Kerry … I mean, of course was leading among moderates. But in fact, he led among the newer voters. He led among the youngest voters. He led among the Internet (?) voters who showed up in the caucus there. What happened?

Howard Dean: Momentum. Basic difference. You know, we're the front runners, he uncovers the vote (Inaudible) magazine. When that happens, everybody details(?) on you. I had all the other guys whackin' me everyday. You guys were writing about it or showing it on television — every day. That takes a toll. Then what happened was, we decided we had to fight back. So we went after the other number one in Iowa. We pick Gephardt, so we both ended up three and four. And that's what happened. Multiple … multi-candidate race is tough …

Diane Sawyer: The negativity of going after the …

Howard Dean: (Overlap) Going after somebody else gives you bad points too, especially when there are other people in the race and you're saying (Inaudible/Low Voiced).

Diane Sawyer: You mentioned taxes. Um, you had called for a complete repeal of the Bush (Overlap) tax cuts. And since then, under a bit of attack when people had said it would cost the middle class quite a bit of money, if you did that you said that you're going to have middle class reform of the taxes.

Howard Dean: (Overlap) Yeah.

Diane Sawyer: Should you have said that at the beginning with this just caving into the …

Howard Dean: (Overlap) Well, let's … let's … let's remember again, let's correct the urban (?) legend (?) here. That story that I was planning a middle class tax reform, so we could have a (Inaudible), was not given by us. That was leaked to an enterprising Boston Globe reporter who did a great job ferreting out from our advisers, who should've kept their mouths shut, what our plan was. Um, the reason that I believe the first tax structure is wrong is because it doesn't help the middle class at all. Fifty percent of the people in this country get $304. Their tuition has gone up (Inaudible) $304, their property taxes (Inaudible) their health care premiums, because of the service cuts, the president has passed onto middle class people. The people who benefit from the tax cuts make more than a million dollars a year or our very large corporations. So my idea is to get rid of all the Bush tax cuts then redo the tax code after you balance the budget and get real …

Diane Sawyer: (Overlap) But however it leaked, should it have been said in the beginning? Do you wish that you had said it…

Howard Dean: (Overlap) No. No, I believe we ought to balance the budget and until we can show how to balance the budget, we can't promise people tax cuts. The biggest difference between me and everybody else in this race, including President Bush, who is in some ways acting like the most liberal Democrat you could have because of the borrow and spend, borrow and spend, spend, spend, spend, charge it (Inaudible) credit card the administration. And but those (Inaudible) everybody else is running, they'll promise you tax cuts, they'll promise you health care, they'll promise you education, they'll promise you help with your college. Now, everybody knows that that's not true and you can't do it. I think the reason 50 percent of the people don't vote in this country is because they know darn well not only is there not much difference between a Republican and a Democrat, but everybody in Washington says one thing at election time and goes back and do something … does something else. The reason I was so successful in (Inaudible) is because I didn't mind giving people bad news. And when they … they'll respect you a lot more as a political leader if you give them bad news straight to their face.

Diane Sawyer: One of the touchstones, as you said on the (Inaudible), of course you're famously been quoted saying you suppose that it was a good thing that … that he was …

Howard Dean: (Overlap) Now, that's a very interesting thing about that. That is about the silliest thing I (Inaudible). Imagine (Inaudible) on one word (Inaudible) the Children Defense Fund dinner, thinking about the next thing I was going to say and somebody jumps in a question about Iraq. I said I suppose it's a good thing.

Diane Sawyer: But let me … let me ask (Overlap) you what I think is a touchstone issue. Today, if Saddam Hussein were still in power today because the allies would not join in in a kind of force to go in together, would that be preferable to you than what was done?

Howard Dean: We don't know the answer to that yet and here's why. We had contained Saddam Hussein for 12 years, he had virtually no air force, we had … we were bombing his … his aircraft site and will include another site, we had total control of Saddam's ability to cause trouble. Now, the president made a case that al Qaeda and Saddam were linked. Last week, the secretary of state admitted there was no truth to that whatsoever. The president made a number … a number of other statements, none of which turns out to be true, I'm going to defend this country but I'm going to supposedly have spent $160 billion and 500 lives getting rid of Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. That's where the real danger is. OK, now fast-forward. President Bush is flown (?) in, we've gotten rid of Saddam. That's a wonderful thing to get rid of Saddam. Two weeks ago, commercial airliners were escorted into American air space by F-16 jets. Two weeks ago, we lost our 500th soldier more now than when supposedly mission accomplished occurred.

Diane Sawyer: So you're saying it might in fact have been better, even if he was still in power today?

Howard Dean: (Overlap) What I'm saying is, as long as we can control … Saddam was never an intimate threat to the United States of America and that's been very clear, and the Administration knows that Cheney has backed off on that repeatedly. Look, I supported the first Gulf War, I supported the Afghanistan war, I supported the (Inaudible). This time, I didn't think (Inaudible). And to this day, I don't think we're any safer with Saddam gone. We're very … I was criticized by that by all the Democrats. The very next few weeks, the death went up to 400, 500 and an American fighter plane had to escort American airliners through American space. Tell me how that makes us safer.

Diane Sawyer: I want to talk a little bit about the two of you but I have a couple of quick questions but I'm afraid I'm going to lose you. Um, are you … are you scared about the loss of momentum here? Are you … what happens if you lose in New Hampshire? Is it effectively over?

Howard Dean: No. I … I don't intend to lose but I (Inaudible) the voters in New Hampshire. We have a long history in New Hampshire and more than a million voters (Inaudible) who believes what they say and who believes what people in … who won't get (Inaudible) promise you everything.

Diane Sawyer: Is coming in second a loss?

Howard Dean: (Clears Throat) Well, I'm going to try to win just like I tried to win in Iowa. And with every … I have a huge amount of respect for voters. They're going to do whatever they do and I'm going to accept their verdict because that's how democracy works. And then the day after New Hampshire, we're going to go to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and New Mexico.

Diane Sawyer: Have you planned your speech for the night after the primary?

Howard Dean: That'll be a little different than the one you (Overlap/Inaudible).

Diane Sawyer: I know a bit about how you met but I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions about … I think the people … I think at home and their families are dealing with and wonder about the two of you. Uh, religion, first of all, ever a problem? Jewish? Christian? How did you make a decision about how to raise the children?

Judy Dean: Uh, I think we … we celebrate all the Jewish holidays, usually with my family. And we celebrate the Christian holidays with Howard's family. And we try to involve the children with both faiths and have them make their own decisions about what they want to do. And that's what they're doing.

Diane Sawyer: Ever any tension? Ever any dispute? Ever any … ?

Judy Dean: No. No. Even my grandmother loves Howard. (Laughs)

Howard Dean: I think she would've been happier if I was Jewish.

Judy Dean: (Overlap/Inaudible)

Diane Sawyer: Would your family have been happier if she was a (Overlap) Christian?

Howard Dean: My father and mother, first of all, they adore Judy. My mother loved Judy because she read The New York Times Book Review and nobody else in the house did. My father thought she was great. And my father and mother had very difficult times. My father was Protestant and my mother was Catholic. In those days, that was a big deal. I mean, they did have a rough time. And I think my parents were determined not because I married outside my faith, they would not have made … they were never going to make an issue of that and they never did.

Diane Sawyer: What … how do the children feel about this race?

Howard Dean: (Coughs) Well, that's interesting. I think it's tough on them a little bit, because even though we keep them out of the limelight, and the press has been pretty respectful of that, which I appreciate, uh, you know, they do get asked about things, and they do … I remember there was some big event, and I can't remember whether it was Al Gore endorsing me or whatever it was, and Ann found out about it in the newspaper and she was kind of … a little upset about that, and it was just because, you know, it was …

Judy Dean: It went so fast.

Howard Dean: Yeah, it went so fast and I promised I wouldn't say anything, and I didn't even tell Judy for a couple of days. Because we had promised not to say anything. Uh, and then there's this stuff about, you know, but they've lived with the governor stuff, they've been children of the governor for 12 years, so these people say stuff about my position on issues that they don't approve of and take it out on them a little bit. But they get along pretty well, and I think that … I think they sort of get a kick out of it, uh …

Judy Dean:I think they're also really glad about it. I think that, you know, I think they are. I think they think he's doing great things, and obviously they know him well, for all their years (?), and I … I think they are two private kids and they like their privacy, but I think they are also really proud of Howard and what he's doing. And I think that's (Inaudible) counts for a lot.

Diane Sawyer: Do you think you can be really private people and be president?

Judy Dean: Well, that may be different. (Laughs)

Howard Dean: Well, I think … I think the kids will. To … to, you know, the extent that any child can. I mean, I think that, again, as I say, I think the last two Presidents, Bill Clinton and George Bush, their kids have been treated reasonably respectfully. I actually stood … stood up for the president when the girls got in the I.D. Problem, because I didn't think … I thought that was out of … out of line, you know, because that never would have got in the paper if George Bush hadn't been president, uh, and I think that's the standard. The standard is, will you treat these children as just plain children. They … it's one thing with your wife. I mean, Judy is my partner and, uh, they have a right to know, I think, and … but with the kids, they didn't choose to be born into the family of the president of the United States, and they get to be kids. And they get to set their own agenda, they don't want to feel like everything they've earned comes from because their father was a … a big deal, and I think that's … we're going to do the best we can to preserve that.

Diane Sawyer: One other thing (Inaudible) people start to write (?), the … the fact that (Inaudible) brother's (?) ceremony, that you weren't there for that either and … (Overlap)

Judy Dean:Um-Hmm.

Howard Dean: That's the most ridiculous thing. Beth (?) wasn't there, Bill's wife. Virginia wasn't there. The … none of our wives ever knew my brother Charlie. This was … this was actually just a wonderful trip, because the three of us and my mother flew to Hawaii and flew back. It was, I don't know, like 20 hours in the plane, and it was … it was the first time all four of us had been together without screaming kids around for a long time. It was a great experience, and the four of us are the only people who ever had to live through that my father passed away, so the four of us were the only ones that lived through that. I thought it made all the sense in the world, to do it the way we did.

Diane Sawyer: Are you still wearing his belt (?)?

Howard Dean: I do. I do. (Overlap)

Diane Sawyer: Now?

Howard Dean: Oh, (Inaudible).

Diane Sawyer: Too private to show us?

Judy Dean: (Laughs)

Howard Dean: Yeah.

Diane Sawyer: So for your 50th birthday … (Overlap)

Howard Dean: Thirty-nine.

Judy Dean: (Laughs)

Howard Dean: We do not have 50th birthdays in our house.

Diane Sawyer: Excuse me. Excuse me. How … how … my research …


Diane Sawyer: … rhododendrons? (Inaudible) exactly (Inaudible)?

Judy Dean: (Laughs) I don't know, we don't do that much with presents. I think … what I always do for my birthday, which is right around Mother's Day, we have a combined celebration and we do a family bike ride. Now May in Vermont, sometimes it's a cold family bike ride, and sometimes it's not, but we usually do a family bike ride with, uh, squished cupcakes in a knapsack and …

Howard Dean: Um-hmm.

Judy Dean: … uh, that's what I … I like to do that, that's what I like to do. I'm not a very thing person. I mean, I have things I want and … and I have thing … everything I want, I have pretty much … what I really have, and I'm not that interested in things.

Diane Sawyer: How is he on the guitar?

Judy Dean: Pretty good. I'm very … I'm musical, so some of it goes by me, but he's pretty good. He is.

Diane Sawyer: Favorite song, (Inaudible).

Howard Dean: Favorite, uh, artist, at least for now. I don't … (Inaudible) I like tons of artists, but I think I like Wyeth Cliff(?), because very much like the music when I was growing up, it's … it's kind of, uh, it's social music, social music. It talks about issues and it talks about it in a pretty positive way. And of course, the kids think he's fantastic, he's, you know, a tremendous hip-hop artist.

Diane Sawyer: How are you at the dancing?

Howard Dean: I can … I didn't … (Overlap)

Judy Dean:He's a good dancer.

Diane Sawyer: Really? I think we have to do a little research … (Overlap)


Howard Dean: Well, (Inaudible) takes her to (Inaudible) and barn dancing (?), at … at the Javit(?) … Jefferson Jackson Dinner (?) in … in Iowa.

Diane Sawyer: Should government be (Inaudible) … when you look at the big things you have to (Inaudible), you look at the public scrutiny with (Inaudible) for clothes and hair and … is that … (Overlap)

Howard Dean: … does the nation really care about.

Diane Sawyer: Is that something you want to subject yourself to?

Judy Dean:You know, I … I think, uh, what it has to do for the country really would override that. I mean, you have to put it all in context, you know, I don't … I don't really care too much what I wear, and I'm sure it would be criticized and my hair and everything else, and I … it just doesn't bother me that much, and I think it's so much more important … I believe in Howard so much, and it's so much more important what he could do for the country, and I know he could, uh … I would just go along with that. (Overlap)

Diane Sawyer: … people, because in Vermont, you didn't really have to do a lot of elaborate …

Judy Dean: No, that's true.

Howard Dean: It's true.

Diane Sawyer: … official things.

Judy Dean: Yes. (Coughing obscures voice)

Howard Dean: Judy's been to the White House a couple of times, because I was chairman of the National Governors, so she sat with the President and so forth and so on, and so I mean it's not intimidating, you just have to sit next to … to somebody and you find out that most of the people you sit next to at those White House dinners are pretty interesting people.

Judy Dean: That's true.

Diane Sawyer: You said you … she's been a huge influence on you. One of the things you said is the best advice she gave me is that I look like an idiot on TV.

Howard Dean: (Laughs) Well, sometimes I do.

Judy Dean: I think the best thing is just that I tell him what I really think.

Howard Dean: Which is important. (Overlap)

Judy Dean: I … I think that's it.

Howard Dean: And there's a … early on, when I was in the House, the Vermont House, for some reason I was asked to give a speech about the Soviet Union, a subject which I knew something about from school, but not a great deal. So I went down and gave the speech, Judy came with me, we were within walking distance of the City Hall, which is where it was, in Burlington. And we walked back, it was a snowy night. I said, well, dear, what did you think about the speech?

Judy Dean: (Laughs)

Howard Dean: And she said, well, I think it was fair to poor, with the emphasis on poor.


Howard Dean: Which I knew exactly was right.

Diane Sawyer: But doesn't it ever wound you?

Howard Dean: No. The … the relationship we have is … (Overlap)

Judy Dean: Well … (Overlap)

Howard Dean: … to each other. I mean, we've been living together for 23 years.

Diane Sawyer: And you check in every night?

Howard Dean: We do, or sometimes more.

Diane Sawyer: But she's not watching TV, because you don't have cable TV, you have …

Judy Dean: We don't have cable TV, no, and I don't like watching TV that much. I don't like to have it on if the kids are around, just because I don't want them drawn towards it. I don't … it's just not something … it's not like I never watch TV, I hardly ever watch TV, it's not something I think of doing.

Diane Sawyer: Well, thank you … (Overlap)

Judy Dean: Oh, oh … (Laughs) But I will … I will … (Laughs)

Diane Sawyer: I'm very (Inaudible). (Laughs) You have … sort of … I think both of you have said that she could be in the White House if you wanted (Inaudible) practice(?), and yet I've … I've heard people wondering if you could (Inaudible), how could you have private patients wandering in?

Judy Dean: Yeah. I … I definitely want to do medicine in some way. I want to continue practicing medicine in some way. You know, I don't know whether it could be a private practice, I don't know whether I could see patients regularly, but I want to somehow continue to do medicine. You know, whether it has to be a little more distance from patients, I … I don't … we'll figure that out when I get there.

Howard Dean: I've been there a lot, I've been to the White House, I can't even tell you how many times I've been to the White House, I know what the security procedures are. It's not a big deal. I mean, assuming that you're not going to do anything bad. You know, you got to go through a magnetometer. It's not a big deal. Takes an extra … so I … I don't … I mean, I think the real barriers to that are not as stuff … tough as they're imagined to be.

Diane Sawyer: So you think she could have a private practice … (Overlap)

Howard Dean: I do. And the main security issues would not be who's in the office and what goes on in the office, the main security issues would be the regularity of going back and forth in a predictable route, and that can be overcome as well. I … you know, I … because I've been so long in politics, and chaired the National Governors and the Democratic Governor, and for four out of the 12 years I was in Washington, I spent … I mean I was in Vermont, I spent a lot of time in Washington, so I know how those systems work, and I don't think there would be a big problem at all.

Diane Sawyer: So what do the two of you fight about?


Howard Dean: … not much. (Overlap)

Judy Dean: … pretty much get, you know, (Inaudible) we have.

Diane Sawyer: You said something very tantalizing. You said, there's one thing I did that's pretty (Inaudible).


Judy Dean: It wasn't that bad, it wasn't that bad.

Diane Sawyer: Yes? What was it?

Judy Dean: Tell it, go ahead.

Howard Dean: You tell it, (Inaudible) I don't think it's that bad. (Overlap)

Judy Dean: … that bad. Howard just gave me something … important piece of mail to mail, and I … and I lost it, and I didn't realize I lost it until later, that's all it was. That's what it was. It … (Overlap)

Diane Sawyer: He forgave?

Judy Dean: He forgave, and he never, ever brings it up. Just every time when he does something I don't like so much, I think gosh, I would have reminded him about it over and over and over again.

Howard Dean: (Laughs)

Judy Dean: And he just doesn't. He does not hold grudges. What's done is done and you move on from there. And that's what he's like.

Diane Sawyer: You were there, you were a part of his life when you decided to give up drinking, and one of the things you said was that, you know, I … (Inaudible) inappropriate things of which I said them enough without drinking.

Howard Dean: (Laughs) That's true.

Diane Sawyer: That you didn't need the help. Were you an influence in … (Overlap)

Judy Dean: I don't think so. I mean, we … we were just barely married … we were just married.

Howard Dean: Yeah.

Judy Dean: So I don't think so. I think Howard made his own decision. And, uh, and that was it.

Diane Sawyer: Is it eerie (?) when you think about President Bush, Yale, he was a senior when you were a freshman …

Howard Dean: Um-hmm.

Diane Sawyer: … both of you … (Overlap)

Howard Dean: Total different place, though, in three years.

Diane Sawyer: Both of you giving up drinking, both of you losing a sibling, both of you raised in comparative privilege in this country.

Howard Dean: His grandmother being a bridesmaid at my grandmother's wedding. My father told me that. My father knew the Walkers and the Bushes really well, I mean not close, close friends but they knew each other.

Diane Sawyer: (Inaudible) do you feel parallel lives in … (Overlap)

Howard Dean: You know what I really feel, Diane?

Diane Sawyer: What?

Howard Dean: I feel like George Bush is a different generation than I am. When I went to Yale, uh, the time … the three years that we changed … Yale changed dramatically. The place completely changed, from the old, you know, if you went to prep school, you went to Yale, to they wanted the top two students in every high school's class in the country. Uh, large numbers of African-American students and Latino students were admitted. Women were admitted. The place changed dramatically. It became what it is today, which is kind of a hotbed of people that are really interested in public service, and it was this whole … there's a whole generation between me and George Bush, our values are completely different. Which isn't as amazing, considering we were brought up in … in very similar ways.

Diane Sawyer: The thing about that, though, is you said … you have written, I saw her and I thought she was just adorable.

Howard Dean: Well, I still think so. (Laughs)

Diane Sawyer: Adorable. First date, right, you cooked spaghetti?

Howard Dean: That's true.

Diane Sawyer: Second date, you mauled(?) a hamburger.


Judy Dean: Yes.

Howard Dean: (Inaudible).

Judy Dean: Soft hammered(?) it, yes, that's true.

Diane Sawyer: But you put her through a test. Somebody told a daring joke of some kind and you said, if she laughs, she's in …

Judy Dean: (Laughs)

Diane Sawyer: … if she doesn't …

Howard Dean: A little different than that. We had … you should tell this story.

Judy Dean: Well, for the first date, Howard asked me to his parents' apartment where he was living while he was in medical school and, uh, and I said, yes, although he was a little different than the usual people I know, because he looked … dressed differently, he dressed much … he dressed in corduroys and a button down shirt and a briefcase, and everybody else was wearing jeans and t-shirts and knapsacks. But I said yes, and I went out and, uh, I met him at his house and there were three other friends of yours there from Yale and they were great. And, uh, so I thought, well, if he has friends like this … (Overlap)

Howard Dean: (Laughs) (Inaudible).

Judy Dean: (Laughs)

Diane Sawyer: But you had to … you had to hang in there.

Howard Dean: Well, uh, what happens is, one of my friends told a really outrageous joke, and I … this is a first date, right? I hardly know this woman. So he tells this really funny but really, really bad joke, and I thought to myself, oh my lord, if … if she laughs, this is … we're going to have a second date, and if she storms out, that's the end of this relationship. And she laughed. She turned red, but she laughed.

Judy Dean: (Laughs)

Diane Sawyer: Why … why is she a better doctor than you were?

Howard Dean: She's smarter.

Judy Dean: I'm not a better doctor. We are good doctors, we're both good doctors.

Diane Sawyer: So … just one general question about this last … the 16th(?). It's almost six days ago, ten days ago, 12 days ago, you were warned that suddenly (Inaudible) it has to be have been rough at some level. You have to have said something to each other about this time.

Howard Dean: It has been a hard time, but the thing is, I knew we were never the front run … runner. You can't be the front runner without a single vote being cast.

Diane Sawyer Did you know it would be like this?

Howard Dean: It's been like this for about six or eight weeks. When you're in front and the media's talking you up, and the former vice president and presidential candidate of your party and his rival, and the senior Senator from Iowa, all endorse you, that makes the other candidates in the … candidates in the race very, very nervous. And I paid a price for that. It also excites folks like you, and … and (Inaudible) closely as you possibly can, and it has been very tough. But the truth is, in the end, I have enormous faith in the voters. What I represent is real change, and people have a choice. If they want real change, they should vote for me. If they just want to do the Washington thing, there's some very other good candidates out there. But I don't think it's really going to change the country the way it ought to be changed.

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